Men in Nursery

Men in Nursery

by: paulpg2000 - 05-07-06 21:36

I forgott to add my job title. My job title is Nursery Nurse and the qualifactions I have got is NVQ Level 3. Thanks.

by: Franciska

Thanks Paulpg2000

Men in Nursery - 28-07-06 00:00

by: beecj

I'm all in favour of male nursery nurses.
As part of the Equal Opportunities policy, as professional nursery nurses, we actively encourage children to explore play equipment, role play, etc whether it's considered a typical male or female role.We constantly teach the children and parents to accept the child's freedom of choice.
I don't see why this has to change once you join the adult word! I would expect both men and women to be professional whilst working with children.

Men in Nursery - 17-08-06 10:49

by: sam kelly

Historically men have not chosen a career in childcare due to it's low profile and poor salaries. it has often been seen as a vocation and not a profession.
As the qualifications and skills required become more recognised and people appreciate the impact those who work with children have on the 'next generation' I think we will begin to see an increase in men working with children. This can only be a positive as it is important to have a balance. Sam (female).

Men in Nursery - 26-09-06 22:13

by: smurf

I had a two men that started college with me and one of them stayed on the qualify.

I thought he was very brave in a large class with so many girls, he did very well and is more than likely to be just as good with children as any woman.

I think more men should have the confidence to do it if it is what they want to do. If a person has a love for child care nothing should stop them if it is what they enjoy.

Men in Nursery - 07-10-06 00:29

by: Skyenet

I found it quite daunting on my college course as I was the only man in an intake of 58 students and also the oldest student at 50. However I am glad I stuck out the course and had great support from both college and placement staff. I passed my NC and also my higher. As a single parent of my young daughter I feel I need to wait a while before going onto an HNC course as it demands a lot of time and effort. I think childcare is the most rewarding job I have ever done. Not financially as I don't get paid as I am now doing voluntary work at my local nursery, but because of the great feeling helping children develop while learning about the world and enjoying themselves. Many children don't have male role models in their life and I try to make sure I provide a positive role model encouraging children to not develop traditional male/female stereotyping. I find interacting with the children so enjoyable and they are just like sponges soaking up what is heppening around them. They keep my active both mentally and physically and I don't feel my age at all. I am taken part in a local promotion of men into childcare and hope this help encourage more men to take up chiildcare. At the moment males only make up 2% of the total chilcare workforce in my local authority so plenty room for improvement :-)

Men in Nursery - 05-11-06 14:17

by: Franciska

Skyenet, Thanks for info. Only 2 men have responded to my question since the summer. If there are any more male early years practitioners out there please "have your say". Many thanks from Franciska

Men in Nursery - 23-11-06 14:55

by: martin72

I am a 34 year old male and have been working in childcare fot just over three years now, and currently doing my NVQ level 3 in Childrens Care Learning & Development, and in the last three years I have been the only male where i work, and when i attend trainging / college i am the only male, its great to see 6 male students at Ashton Six form college studying childcare.

Men in Nursery - 01-03-07 15:54

by: nunulboro

I tend to think the prejudice of men working in the child care sector is due to the prejudices of the parents!
We have one male working with us and have had parents request he does not change children's nappies, however these same parents were ok with a man changing nappies when he was 'gay!'
The labels that go with the job in this industry are enough to put people off, and then you have the poor pay, and working conditions on top!!
Is it any wonder it is female dominated if your not doing it for the love of the children then why do it at all??

Men in Nursery - 11-03-07 16:34

by: iggyfishtank

I hope you told them this was not possible. By agreeing to stop men changing nappies you are essentialy saying that, yes they are more of a risk and that they are a danger. If there is a risk of someone abusing the children then the policy needs to change for everyone.

Men in Nursery - 11-03-07 16:47

by: joshuajones

iggyfishtank
in principal I agree with you.But, at the risk of sounding contraversial, do we not have a responsibility to work in partnership with parents, and try to respect parents wishes ? As an adult, if you were to go to hospital and did not want to be examined by a male doctor, or a male not wanting to be examined by a female doctor, you have the right to request a same sex as you doctor. As children, this choice is taken away, do parents not have the right to protect their children from someone of the opposite sex changing their children too. What about religious preferences ?

Men in Nursery - 11-03-07 17:39

by: iggyfishtank

If you agree with the principal then you should put it into practice. If we change your reply around a bit to show you that sexist views are the same as old fashioned racism.

‘if you were to go to hospital and did not want to be examined by a BLACK doctor, or a WHITE PERSON not wanting to be examined by a BLACK doctor, you have the right to request a same RACE as you doctor ’

I know you cant actually request someone to be the same race but it shows how the argument would look when changed to black people.
If you have a looney racist parent who said I don’t want my child nappy to be changed by that black person as I think black people are more of a danger you wouldn’t go with that would you? As I said, by accepting that request you are saying that, yes they are more of a danger. You are also breaking equality laws by changing that persons job role solely on the basis of that person sex – not ability or anything else. You are stopping that person doing the job for no reason whatsoever apart from prejudice. You also say ‘do parents not have the right to protect their children’. Where has this idea of protection come from. In the way you have phrased that you, even now, are saying there is more of a threat from men. If they have gone through the CRB check and you have no concerns over their practice then you have no reason to stop them doing a part of their job. The doctor ananolgy is a choice you can make and has nothing to do with the idea that you think a male doctor will abuse you. You may feel more confortable talking and issue through with someone of the same sex. Nappy changing is completely different thing.

Religious preferences are the same. Could you please tell me which religion forbids men to change nappies? I hope you are not getting cultural and religious ideas mixed up.

Men in Nursery - 11-03-07 19:21

by: joshuajones

I am not saying it's right, I am saying do we not have a duty to respect parents wishes. After all we do things on a daily basis that may not be in the childs best interest, but fit in with the parents wishes. For example only letting a child sleep for half an hour when it clearly needs more, like witholding a food from a child for no other reason than the parent wants it, potty training before a child is ready and so on. We allow parents to control these issues but then say they cannot ask a member of staff not to undertake intimate care, because it offends our sensibilities. I am in no way saying I agree, I have employed several men in my nurseries and have encountered this problem more than once. How do you refuse a parental request from a mother whose child has been abused by a man, that only women change her child. There has to be an element of reasonableness in our decisions, and not a blind following of policy. Every parent, child and case is different. I do not believe that men pose a risk to children, and race is a different issue. I am simply talking about working in partnership with parents.

Men in Nursery - 12-03-07 22:39

by: iggyfishtank

Bit long but it needs o be. This issue cannot be discussed in soundbites.

As you missed the point completely I will put it again. We have the right to respect parents wishes but where they are prejudiced you do not have to take them into account at all. I agree race is a separate issue but it was an analogy to show you how crazy your point was. You would not respect the wishes of a parent who didn’t want a black person to work with their child for the only reason being that they diddnt trust black people – because that is just wrong. It seems., from your information given, that your idea of partnership is doing whatever the parents say. That is not partnership. You should always do what’s in the best interests of the child and explain to the parents why you are doing it – namely as your looking out for the best interests of the child and it is our job as the people who work with children to do what is best for the child not for the parent. If they want to go elsewhere that is there choice but we cannot be held over a barrel by parents otherwise they run the nursery and the people with the training and the knowledge don’t. It is also our role to educate parents to make the right decisions and to understand why we make decisions –as they are in the best interests of the child. If you withold food from a child for no reason then I don’t know why you are still in the early years profession to be honest and if you don’t follow your own policy then, quite frankly, I don’t know why you bother writing one in the first place. I mean, what’s the point of writing something that looks all nice but you don’t actually believe in and are willing to ignore if there is a bit of resistance to it. I agree with you that decisions should be made with an element of reasonableness (not sure that’s a word but ill let you off as my grammar and spelling is awful) but it is not reasonable to stop a man doing his job because of no reason other than prejudice or ignorance.

I will show how partnership should be done using your example of a mother who has had a child abused by a man.

JJ = Joshua Jones
P = Parent.

JJ: Hello, welcome to your first day for you and little Child A.
P: Hello, there is one thing I am worried about.
JJ: Oh go on then, we like to work in partnership with parents to allay any fears they have.
P: I see you have a man working for you.
JJ: Ah yes, Mr X. He’s very good with babies, he’s got over 10 years experience and a masters in early Years Education…I don’t know why he works here! Ha Ha
P: ha ha…erm, well..the thing is…you see little Child A was abused my a male and, I don’t want her to be put in danger again.
JJ: Well, there is no chance of that here, he has passed his CRB check (as have all our staff) and all our parents love him. He hasn’t had a bad word said about him in over ten years. Of course we cant do anything to change his job description as that would
1. Go against the Sexual Discriminatin act 1973 ( I think – the date I mean)
2. Punnish him for something he had nothing to do with.
3. Actually admit that he may be a danger simply because he is man, as this would actually do.
4. Show Child A, who had appalling treatment by one person who happened to be man, that all men are something to be afraid of and should not be involved with young children as they somehow pose a danger.
5. Not giver Child A a different role model of men that it so clearly needs having gone through such a terrible thing by a person that happened to be a man.
6. . Make a clear seperation of roles that men and women hold in the workplace and in society which is something we do not want to do.
7. It is also in the best interests of the child due to the points I have made and also we fell children should have other male role models in their life.
8. Also in this country we are innocent until proven guilty so to take any action would be unlawful and he could sue me if he wanted…not that he would ha ha ha.
P: But arnt men more of a danger.
JJ: Well, statistically yes but the vast majority of the abuse by men is carried out in the home on their own children and a man hasn’t gone to jail for abuse in a nursery since the late 1960’s. So I think you are quite safe, even if you look at the numbers in black and white.
P: Well, im still not sure.
JJ: If you were to put your child in a different setting that agreed to your request then it would not be acting in the best interests of the child and that’s what we both want, don’t we?
P: Well, yes….
JJ: Would it reassure you to know that we always have 2 people in our nappy room when changing children – for the safety of all our children and staff members? That been our policy for years.
P: Oh, yes…that’s fine.
JJ: You see, if we feel there is a danger then there is a loophole that anyone could get through. We feel that loophole should be closed for all people.
P: Ah now I see why you do it.
JJ: Indeed, now if you have any other concerns then please let us know...whether its about a member of staff or an element of our practice.
P: OK, will do. Thanks for being so open and honest and telling me why you do things that way, I diddnt know that before but now I have all the information I feel much better.
JJ: Its ok, any time. You can stay with Child A for this morning if you want, just to make sure they settle in ok. Its understandable you may have felt that way but in the long run it would not have been the best result for everyone.
P: (thinking) Oh, that’s better, I was so worried, but now im much happier.




It is not about offending sensibilities. You are trying to change the issue. Its equality and being innocent until proven otherwise…in fact its not even about being under suspicion in the 1st place. It about the, frankly wrong, idea that men are more of a danger to children in early years settings. No matter how anyone tries to dress it up that is the issue. We do not have to blindly follow what parents think, we can advise them that in our professional opinion that it is too early for a child to start potty training (to use another example). We could also advise them that in our professional opinion it would b a waste of their child’s time and could make them more stressed about the potty and actually make it more difficult in the long run. Its about saying, and doing, what is the right thing – not what is the path of least resistance.

In your reply (and anyone else who fancies a go) I need you to tell me why we should treat innocent people who have done nothing wrong differently to other people who have also done nothing wrong.

Men in Nursery - 12-03-07 23:36

by: Skyenet

May have been long, but well written and covered the issues very well. I have copied and pasted it for reference. Thanks Iain

Men in Nursery - 13-03-07 09:09

by: hatthar

Wow, Iggyfishtank, that is an amazing answer, I agree with you totally.

What is the point of us doing all this training if we don't advise the parents of the care for the child.

Prejudice is a nasty word, but is exactly what is happening here for these men in early years situations. I feel we should stand up for what we know is right!!!

I looked up Prejudice in the dictionary and this is what it said "preconceived unreasonable opinion" Prejudicial - detrimental; causing harm; injury." By not standing up to these issues this is exactly what we are doing to the child.

Well done, Iggyfishtank.

Men in Nursery - 13-03-07 16:31

by: joshuajones

You too are missing the point. The Equal Opps Act has been put into place to eliminate predjudice I agree, and as such is a good act. But the law allows choice.
We live in a democratic society where the state does not dictate to us, and allows us choice in everything we do within the constraints of the law.
Once we have a voice, we have the right to choose, where we go to school, what hospital we attend, who treats us and so on.
A nursery in a high ethnic minority area has the right to advertise and employ an ethnic minority carer, and not be in breach of the law.
A disabled female who requires intimate care has the right to advertise for a female only carer and not be in breach of the law.
Parents of a disabled child have the right to ask for a same sex carer and not be in breach of the law.
The law recognises that there has to be flexibility in it's regulations - Why can't you ?
The law recognises that parents have the ultimate responsibilty for their children and to decide what is right and wrong for them. The law only steps in if their decisions put their child at significant risk of harm.
The children we look after do not have a voice, they are the youngest and most vunerable in our society. Parents have the right to decide what they consider to be the best for their child, whether we agree with it or not.
What gives us the right to overide a parents choice because we don't agree with it ?
What gives us the right to ignore a parents wish to choose who looks after their child ?
Why do we feel that we have the right to take away the rights of parents of this silent and vunerable group.
The law allows flexibility - why can't you ?
CRB checks do not guarantee that the person involved is not a risk, male or female, as the news is constantly pointing out to us, the man that was responsible for the Soham murders had been CRB'd - that worked then didn't it !! You cannot say with 100% certainty that evryone in the nursery is a good person - life is not like that. The police and home office are currently investigating allegations that people who have committed crimes in other countries are taking up jobs that require police clearance, and there is no criminal activity being flagged up because it took place in another country and the systems are not in place to transfer that info to the Metropolitan Police.
Sadly no one can ever be 100% sure a person of any sex is safe.

Men in Nursery - 13-03-07 20:57

by: iggyfishtank

Right your premise is wrong. The law does not allow choice at all. Its like saying you can murder the child as long as the parent asks you to. Murder is illegal as is changing someone’s job role. Exactly your point says about the choice being within the law. Putting a man (or woman) out of doing a role simply because they are one sex is illegal. No choice, no flexibility. The idea that this is some sort of choice issue is muddying the waters. It is about equality and being fair to everyone – including the child. Am afraid you are wrong in thinking the state does not dictate to us. It does in our everyday life in the little thing called the law. I don’t know what living in a democracy has to do with anything to be honest. If we lived under Hitler or Tony Blair is the government brings a law out then you have to obey it even if you don’t agree with it. Right even though race was an analogy –you know a parallel to show how crazy the point was if one or two words were swapped around for another minority here comes the smash. on the subject of getting in someone in from an ethnic minority that is to ensure that the workforce correctly reflects the local community (I am afraid the law dictates that to us too). They can only do this if they feel their workforce (such as the community being 80% indian and the staff being 80% white) does not meet the right balance (ie around 80%). If they have 100% indian staff (in this example) then to advertise for an Indian worker would be illegal. They have to justify the way they advertise when putting the advert in.
The point about a disabled adult is irrelevant as that is an adult – not a child and they can exert a preference. They are deciding on their own care and doesn’t involve anyone else but the carer and the person receiving the care. They are the only ones affected.
The point about having a career is also irrelevant as that is only the parents choice –not the nurseries.
Those two points are nothing to do with nurseries where there is no flexibility.
The law recognises that the parents have responsibility but another law also impacts on the person (male or female) at work. Just because they have responsibility doesn’t mean you bend over to do whatever they like. You, remember, also have a responsibility to that child to give it the best outcome and also to your employee to respect them as an individual and not part of something else (ie just see them as a man first and a skilled practitioner 2nd -which is what you are suggesting). You do realise that women abuse don’t you? Its like the old feminist idea that every man is a potential rapist. Well, yes, but so is every woman. Its about every person being a potential criminal but if we always thought like that we wouldn’t leave our house due to fear.
I will tell you what gives us the right to override what the parents want (and incidentally whether we agree with it or not)– the law and doing what’s right. If they wanted you to beat the child every 2 hours to teach it respect you wouldn’t just go..oh ok its what the parents want and who am I to override it. You must understand that you have more laws governing what you can and cant do than parents do. Also you have employment laws that govern how you treat staff. This does not only apply if the child is in serious harm and so do not even bring that side of it in.


Right Mr Huntley; if you actually look carefully Ian Huntley, while a terrible man, was never actually convicted of anything (until the murders of course)and therefore is innocent of any thing alleged against him otherwise you could just bring someone down by making a load of unfounded allegations and people would say..oh no smoke without fire! Well that’s a fine way to run a country with anyone found innocent of something assumed guilty until they can magically prove otherwise. I don’t know how you further disprove something that you say you didn’t do, there is not enough evidence you did, and a jury and judge found you innocent of. Maybe you could tell us what the police should have done to someone who was never convicted and was therefore innocent in the eyes of the law. That’s why the CRB diddnt work – because he hadn’t committed a criminal act that stopped him working from children. Also bringing up extreme examples does not help anyone. Incidentally I believe he had a partner who lied for him and had some involvement…someone Carr…cant quite remember if they were male or female (SATIRE). They are shocking because they happen so rarely and saying a CRB doesn’t give you information about future things is right. Until we get a Minority Report system (the futuristic film where Tom Cruse is part of a crime unit that looks at offences about to be committed though the use of three psychics which are the offshoot of Genetic experiments) we will never be able to tell the future so to say CRB’s don’t work is like saying Cows don’t work because they cant fly. They are not meant to. We could trade mass murderers until the cows come home but the point is that just because someone was murdered by a man doesn’t mean all men are murderers. Don’t we teach this to young children? That a cow has 4 legs but all things with 4 legs are not cows.

Don’t know why the cow analogy has come out but it just seemed to flow nicely.

Your last sentence is your final undoing. I’ll write it again.

[quote] Sadly no one can ever be 100% sure a person of any sex is safe.
[\quote]

Abso-bloody-exactly. So you ensure you have good procedures and ensure that every member of staff is under supervision – male or female. You then treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty as is their legal right. You have just said you cannot be 100% with anyone so why single out men for special treatment when you have just admitted you cannot be 100% safe with anyone? This brings us back the last point of my last point nicely…

-why should we single men out for special treatment when they have done nothing wrong.

Or I need you to tell me why we should treat innocent people who have done nothing wrong differently to other people who have also done nothing wrong as I said in my previous post.

Your choice of answer.

I would like to thank the other posters for agreeing with me and actually reading the points made something JJ has failed to even acknowledge.

Men in Nursery - 13-03-07 20:59

by: iggyfishtank

oh yes, another thig on the exclusions in the laws on employment of carers. Both examples you used containted no reference to early years care in nurseries -something the topic is about. If you can find me a 'flexible' part of the law that is directly involved with nurseries then fine, until then keep on topic and stop trying to bring in other laws that sort of are in the same ball park to muddy the discussion.

Men in Nursery - 13-03-07 21:08

by: joshuajones

Oh I'm sorry I thought the whole point of a discussion was to bring other opinions that muddied the water, otherwise what is the point of a one sided dictat.
My mistake.

Men in Nursery - 14-03-07 15:16

by: babysarah

I think men are just as good at the job as women, you would be suprised if you dont have males that work with you

Men in Nursery - 14-03-07 20:08

by: iggyfishtank

Ok gang, the longest one yet. It is a mamouth one – take at least 10 mins to read this destroyer. Just to show I can construct an argument in a debate by using evidence, law and moral judgement. I have invited JJ to discuss the issues but they seem to be ignoring them.

From dictionary.com

dis·cus·sion /d?'sk???n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-skuhsh-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate.

From The phrase finder.com

To "muddy the water", to make an issue less clear, or a subject more confusing, by entering new issues or information than had previously been considered".

So just to say the idea of muddying the water is to enter into a discussion and make things less clear by entering other irrelevant and confusing information. Such as talking about employment advertisement of ethnic minorities in areas of high ethnic minorities when the subject is ’men in the nursery’. I would be the one who is following the law and doing the right thing in discussion with parents and you would be the person dictating that a man cant do his job on your say so without any form of reason why apart from prejudice and ignorance.

Just to show I have quite clearly entered into a debate in an open and honest way I will show you the questions you asked and when I answered them – even when they were completely off the point.

I will then show you the questions I asked and your responses to them. I counted questions to be things where there was a question mark after them or there was a questioning tone.

I will do this to show how you have tried to fudge the issue and make the debate about something else, to try and not give men the equal rights they deserve by using words like ‘openess, vunerable, democracy, dictat’ words with high emotional value that try to discredit the other persons view with irrelevancies and emotional value when the debate should be free of this.

OK, hold on….

JJ’s questions and iggy’s answers.

JJ: But, at the risk of sounding contraversial, do we not have a responsibility to work in partnership with parents, and try to respect parents wishes ?

Iggy: If you have a looney racist parent who said I don’t want my child nappy to be changed by that black person as I think black people are more of a danger you wouldn’t go with that would you? As I said, by accepting that request you are saying that, yes they are more of a danger. You are also breaking equality laws by changing that persons job role solely on the basis of that person sex – not ability or anything else. You are stopping that person doing the job for no reason whatsoever apart from prejudice

JJ: As children, this choice is taken away (in terms of an adult choosing the doctor), do parents not have the right to protect their children from someone of the opposite sex changing their children too.
Iggy: Where has this idea of protection come from. In the way you have phrased that you, even now, are saying there is more of a threat from men. If they have gone through the CRB check and you have no concerns over their practice then you have no reason to stop them doing a part of their job. The doctor ananolgy is a choice you can make and has nothing to do with the idea that you think a male doctor will abuse you. You may feel more confortable talking and issue through with someone of the same sex. Nappy changing is completely different thing.


JJ: What about religious preferences ?
Iggy: Religious preferences are the same. Could you please tell me which religion forbids men to change nappies? I hope you are not getting cultural and religious ideas mixed up.


JJ: I am not saying it's right, I am saying do we not have a duty to respect parents wishes.
Iggy: We have the right to respect parents wishes but where they are prejudiced you do not have to take them into account at all. I agree race is a separate issue but it was an analogy to show you how crazy your point was. You would not respect the wishes of a parent who didn’t want a black person to work with their child for the only reason being that they didn’t trust black people – because that is just wrong. It seems, from your information given, that your idea of partnership is doing whatever the parents say. That is not partnership. You should always do what’s in the best interests of the child and explain to the parents why you are doing it – namely as your looking out for the best interests of the child and it is our job as the people who work with children to do what is best for the child not for the parent. If they want to go elsewhere that is there choice but we cannot be held over a barrel by parents otherwise they run the nursery and the people with the training and the knowledge don’t. It is also our role to educate parents to make the right decisions and to understand why we make decisions –as they are in the best interests of the child.

JJ: We allow parents to control these issues but then say they cannot ask a member of staff not to undertake intimate care, because it offends our sensibilities.
Iggy: It is not about offending sensibilities. You are trying to change the issue. Its equality and being innocent until proven otherwise…in fact its not even about being under suspicion in the 1st place. It about the, frankly wrong, idea that men are more of a danger to children in early years settings. No matter how anyone tries to dress it up that is the issue. We do not have to blindly follow what parents think, we can advise them that in our professional opinion that it is too early for a child to start potty training (to use another example). We could also advise them that in our professional opinion it would b a waste of their child’s time and could make them more stressed about the potty and actually make it more difficult in the long run. Its about saying, and doing, what is the right thing – not what is the path of least resistance.

JJ: How do you refuse a parental request from a mother whose child has been abused by a man, that only women change her child.
Iggy: I will show how partnership should be done using your example of a mother who has had a child abused by a man.

JJ = Joshua Jones
P = Parent.

JJ: Hello, welcome to your first day for you and little Child A.
P: Hello, there is one thing I am worried about.
JJ: Oh go on then, we like to work in partnership with parents to allay any fears they have.
P: I see you have a man working for you.
JJ: Ah yes, Mr X. He’s very good with babies, he’s got over 10 years experience and a masters in early Years Education…I don’t know why he works here! Ha Ha
P: ha ha…erm, well..the thing is…you see little Child A was abused my a male and, I don’t want her to be put in danger again.
JJ: Well, there is no chance of that here, he has passed his CRB check (as have all our staff) and all our parents love him. He hasn’t had a bad word said about him in over ten years. Of course we cant do anything to change his job description as that would
1. Go against the Sexual Discriminatin act 1973 ( I think – the date I mean)
2. Punnish him for something he had nothing to do with.
3. Actually admit that he may be a danger simply because he is man, as this would actually do.
4. Show Child A, who had appalling treatment by one person who happened to be man, that all men are something to be afraid of and should not be involved with young children as they somehow pose a danger.
5. Not giver Child A a different role model of men that it so clearly needs having gone through such a terrible thing by a person that happened to be a man.
6. . Make a clear seperation of roles that men and women hold in the workplace and in society which is something we do not want to do.
7. It is also in the best interests of the child due to the points I have made and also we fell children should have other male role models in their life.
8. Also in this country we are innocent until proven guilty so to take any action would be unlawful and he could sue me if he wanted…not that he would ha ha ha.
P: But arnt men more of a danger.
JJ: Well, statistically yes but the vast majority of the abuse by men is carried out in the home on their own children and a man hasn’t gone to jail for abuse in a nursery since the late 1960’s. So I think you are quite safe, even if you look at the numbers in black and white.
P: Well, im still not sure.
JJ: If you were to put your child in a different setting that agreed to your request then it would not be acting in the best interests of the child and that’s what we both want, don’t we?
P: Well, yes….
JJ: Would it reassure you to know that we always have 2 people in our nappy room when changing children – for the safety of all our children and staff members? That been our policy for years.
P: Oh, yes…that’s fine.
JJ: You see, if we feel there is a danger then there is a loophole that anyone could get through. We feel that loophole should be closed for all people.
P: Ah now I see why you do it.
JJ: Indeed, now if you have any other concerns then please let us know...whether its about a member of staff or an element of our practice.
P: OK, will do. Thanks for being so open and honest and telling me why you do things that way, I diddnt know that before but now I have all the information I feel much better.
JJ: Its ok, any time. You can stay with Child A for this morning if you want, just to make sure they settle in ok. Its understandable you may have felt that way but in the long run it would not have been the best result for everyone.
P: (thinking) Oh, that’s better, I was so worried, but now im much happier.

JJ: The law recognises that there has to be flexibility in it's regulations - Why can't you ?
Iggy: Right your premise is wrong. The law does not allow choice at all. Its like saying you can murder the child as long as the parent asks you to. Murder is illegal as is changing someone’s job role. Exactly your point says about the choice being within the law. Putting a man (or woman) out of doing a role simply because they are one sex is illegal. No choice, no flexibility. The idea that this is some sort of choice issue is muddying the waters. It is about equality and being fair to everyone – including the child.

JJ: What gives us the right to overide a parents choice because we don't agree with it ?
Iggy: Iwill tell you what gives us the right to override what the parents want (and incidentally whether we agree with it or not)– the law and doing what’s right. If they wanted you to beat the child every 2 hours to teach it respect you wouldn’t just go..oh ok its what the parents want and who am I to override it. You must understand that you have more laws governing what you can and cant do than parents do. Also you have employment laws that govern how you treat staff. This does not only apply if the child is in serious harm and so do not even bring that side of it in.

JJ:What gives us the right to ignore a parents wish to choose who looks after their child ?
Iggy: I answered that question in the reply above.

JJ:Why do we feel that we have the right to take away the rights of parents of this silent and vunerable group.
Iggy: and again.

JJ:The law allows flexibility - why can't you ?
Iggy:(repeating myself) Right your premise is wrong. The law does not allow choice at all. Its like saying you can murder the child as long as the parent asks you to. Murder is illegal as is changing someone’s job role. Exactly your point says about the choice being within the law. Putting a man (or woman) out of doing a role simply because they are one sex is illegal. No choice, no flexibility. The idea that this is some sort of choice issue is muddying the waters. It is about equality and being fair to everyone – including the child.

Iggy to JJ

Iggy: If you have a looney racist parent who said I don’t want my child nappy to be changed by that black person as I think black people are more of a danger you wouldn’t go with that would you?
JJ: Race is a separate issue.

Iggy: You also say ‘do parents not have the right to protect their children’. Where has this idea of protection come from.
JJ: No response.

Iggy: Could you please tell me which religion forbids men to change nappies? I hope you are not getting cultural and religious ideas mixed up.
JJ: No response.

Iggy: …and if you don’t follow your own policy then, quite frankly, I don’t know why you bother writing one in the first place. I mean, what’s the point of writing something that looks all nice but you don’t actually believe in and are willing to ignore if there is a bit of resistance to it.
JJ: There has to be an element of reasonableness in our decisions, and not a blind following of policy.

Iggy: In your reply (and anyone else who fancies a go) I need you to tell me why we should treat innocent people who have done nothing wrong differently to other people who have also done nothing wrong.
JJ; CRB checks do not guarantee that the person involved is not a risk, male or female, as the news is constantly pointing out to us, the man that was responsible for the Soham murders had been CRB'd - that worked then didn't it !!

Iggy: You do realise that women abuse don’t you?
JJ: No response.

Iggy: If they wanted you to beat the child every 2 hours to teach it respect you wouldn’t just go..oh ok its what the parents want and who am I to override it.
JJ: No response.

Iggy: (in response to the Soham Murders question)I don’t know how you further disprove something that you say you didn’t do, there is not enough evidence you did, and a jury and judge found you innocent of. Maybe you could tell us what the police should have done to someone who was never convicted and was therefore innocent in the eyes of the law.
JJ: No.response.

Iggy: Incidentally I believe he had a partner who lied for him and had some involvement…someone Carr…cant quite remember if they were male or female (SATIRE).
JJ: No response.

Iggy: (CRB’s telling the future) They are not meant to. We could trade mass murderers until the cows come home but the point is that just because someone was murdered by a man doesn’t mean all men are murderers. Don’t we teach this to young children? That a cow has 4 legs but all things with 4 legs are not cows.
JJ: No response.

Iggy: You have just said you cannot be 100% with anyone so why single out men for special treatment when you have just admitted you cannot be 100% safe with anyone?
JJ: No response.

Iggy: why should we single men out for special treatment when they have done nothing wrong
JJ: No response.

Iggy: I need you to tell me why we should treat innocent people who have done nothing wrong differently to other people who have also done nothing wrong
JJ: No response.


END.

Now I don’t aim to misrepresent here but from that evidence –which anyone can see and contradict, be my guest – it seems there is only one person who is entering a debate. I, in my obviously biased opinion, have answered every question directly and head on rather than ignore many of the questions. You will also note from my replies that I took every sentace apart and replied to every point made to show the lies told in trying to keep the idea of men in the nursery a taboo. Lies such as the law alows us flexibility, the idea that partnership is doing whatever the parents tell us to do, men are more of a risk and so on.

Now JJ, you can put your toys back in the pram if you want to and answer the questions you have so far ignored. The idea of a debate is to get two sides but, and here is the hard bit, one side is right and the other is wrong. That doesn’t mean that the person victorious is dictating to you it just mean your argument and opinion is wrong. That’s a hard thing to take, you ideas being exposed as bogus. Now that’s very bad if you end up on the loosing side after being exposed as ignorant, not following your own policies, sexist, and unable to keep to the points of a debate. You have got another chance to answer the points or show me where you have directly answered the points made where I have claimed you made no response. You can also tell me (and everyone else reading) if you feel I have used an answer for one thing that does not answer your question. I’m open enough to say I may have made a mistake in my posts and give you a further explination, can you?

Men in Nursery - 20-03-07 21:46

by: iggyfishtank

Well, well, look who responded.

Not Joshua Jones.

I will asume you will admit that you were wrong then?

Men in Nursery - 21-03-07 10:45

by: hatthar

iggyfishtank,

My guess would be that your emails are so agressive they don't encourage people to want to respond.

I can see that this issue is clearly so very important to you, and seems to bring out a emotional response, but instead of being so agressive, maybe you could take the line of respecting that have been subjected to different environments and have learnt different information from them. My guess is anyone would now feel uncomfortale to respond to your email because they would feel that you would gloat if they admitting they were wrong, or didn't know that information before. If you wish to change peoples attitudes it may be better to explain how upsetting or frustrating it is in these situations.

I actually do completely agree with your opinion but this is not the way to help people to understand, it just shuts down discussion. My guess is no one will feel happy now to respond to your email, and you will not get the opportunity to understand how they gained this point of view and who they gained it from.

I have to say I am worried what response this email will bring from you.

Men in Nursery - 21-03-07 20:45

by: newsetting

Oh my god iggyfishtank, you have far too much time on your hands!

Men in Nursery - 21-03-07 20:53

by: iggyfishtank

Well let me tell you sometheing....rrrrrr. (thats a joke)

Look all i was doing was trying to engage in debate. I was only agressive when it was said i was dictating and not engaging in debate. All my other posts are pretty down the line but when accustations are made against me personally then i have a right to defend myself. Yeah it riled me when i was accused of doing something i was not. I did not know how to repond apart from to put my post again to show that JJ was trying to fudge the issue. It was the way i imagine Chirchill would respond if he had got a letter from Hitler saying he was a bad influence on his country and his human right record was not up to mutch! (for example, not that i am like Churchill and JJ is like Hitler). I was respoinding to the acusation that i was dictating to people. All i did was repeatedly post what i had said to show i was happy to engage in a debate and to show how i had answered openly and fairly and the other poster diddnt.

I openly asked people to prove me wrong or if i had misrepresented people. That is still open. You can debate any of the points i have made and i will show them to be, as i beielve, right. I am open to being proven wrong. I wont gloat unless you say i am dictating to you then refuse to answer questions that, to me at least, seem pretty legitamate.

As i have said its not even about being in different situations and what you have leanred from them. Its about equality and the idea that men are more of a danger. Which is false. This whole argument is actualyl attacking me, as a man, in early years. That i am somehow ot be feared just because i am a man.

if anyone diddnt know the info before then thats fine but to claim, as JJ did that the law allowed flexibility in this issue was just plain wroing and misleading to the debate (and thats what people do if they are against something but cant beat it - they make stuff up) if you dont know something then dont say you do to try and score points and make the issue of men in the nursery taboo.

Look if it seemed agressive then sorry, i was just trying to put passion across without making the debate emotionally based.

now what i came here to say was this from BBC news.


'Abuse paranoia' damages children
The "hysteria" surrounding fears over child abuse is damaging boys' education, warned Boris Johnson.

The Conservative education spokesman said that fears over paedophilia had stopped men entering teaching - depriving boys of male role models.

He questioned the culture in which parents needed to have criminal checks to travel with their children on a school bus to a sports game.

The culture of such criminal vetting was "out of control," he said.

Speaking at a conference for independent schools, Mr Johnson said that he was "vehemently anti-paedophile".

'Hysterical'

"But what I worry about is that we get so hysterical about the slightest suggestion of contact between male teachers and their charges, and all the enormous health and safety guidance.

"If I wanted to go and support my kid's rugby team on a coach to Bath we all have to have Criminal Records Bureau checks - the parents, the mums. The whole CRB culture is out of control," he said.

Such an exaggerated fear over abuse was discouraging some men from becoming teachers - and he warned that "we need to turn down the hysteria".

As a consequence, he said that boys were losing out by not having enough male teachers, particularly in primary schools.

"We have got to stop saying male and female teachers are interchangeable. It is vital to provide role models for boys," he said.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/education/6472707.s...

While i am loath to use a conservative and Boris at that. It is hysteria by people that stops men comming into the school and...to keep it on track...the nursery. The same points are valid for nursery education as here in school.

Now, if you want to debate the points i am not in any way looking to close down the discussion, as can be seen from my first few points on page 11. I am open to say how i would do things and to debate the reasons why. Just dont accuse me of dictating to you (without good reason)or i will turn all green and my muslces will come out of my shirt and i will cease to be bruce banner and become the internet Hulk.

Men in Nursery - 21-03-07 20:55

by: iggyfishtank

oh and in response to newsetting, i have enough time to argue that men have equal rights as emily pankhurts did for women getting the vote! Ha ha. I enjoy debating, especialy on this subject as it exposes some people for being crazy. Also if i just let them say i was dictating to them it would seem like they were right, which i think i have shown is not the case.

Men in Nursery - 01-04-07 17:53

by: sugarnspice

hi
in respose to 'men in nurseries'
I work with a young guy in my nursery and yeh they can be a good influence to have around. They help provide that little bit more rough and tumble that boys need. But on the down side though, it can be embarrasing sometimes especially when the girls all get together and satrt chatting!

Men in Nursery - 03-04-07 23:07

by: pogo

i'm a male working in childcare. being the only male with 15 females is a challenge. I take part in their chats / gosip etc. If there is a night out on the town I also get invited along. These are usally themed events and I fully participate. We work as a team and this shows in the end product, happy relaxed childcare with an outstanding report from the last Ofsted inspection. My son has recently started his diploma in childcare and is not phased by the 17 females on his course. I know several male workers in my area, all of whom are well respected in the job they do.

Men in Nursery - 06-04-07 14:35

by: Jananland

I think men should be encouraged to work in early years settings. In these days when so many familys are without a male role model, they can play a really important part in children's lives, as we become a more recognised profession hopefuly this will be reflected in our pay thus giving men who would love to work in settings the opportunity to do so while providing for their own families.

Men in Nursery - 21-04-07 16:18

by: Piers

I'm a male nursery worker, too.

Don't feel awful, Mr Monkey. I understand where you're coming from but if some people have some weird hangups then it's best just not to let it get to you.

It is hard, though, when a parent says they will not allow a male to change nappies or even to work with their child at all (as I've heard). It feels as though you've been judged just because you're a male (which you have), and it feels unfair.

I also think it is a shame for the child - both potentially in terms of forging relationships with both men and women, and the development that this can support, but also because I think it's likely the child could pick up on some of the latent distrust of males, which could end up giving it needless emotional/psychological baggage.

There are things you or the setting could do such as have a policy whereby no practitioner (of either gender) is ever left alone with a child in the changing room - although this may be impractical due to staff numbers.

Another possible idea would be to have cctv - obviously a webcam in the nappy change room wouldn't be appropriate, but if parents know there is security footage that is being archived, they might feel it isn't a worry. I don't know if there are any legal issues that such a system would entail - if anyone does, I'd be interested to hear.

Depending on your outlook, both of the above measure might be seen as "pandering" to rather paranoid and unreasonable views on the part of the parent in question.

However, I think it is worth remembering that working together with parents in the way that they are most comfortable - up to a point - will increase the chances of successful partnerships between parents and setting, thus maximising the benefit to the child, which is, of course, the primary concern.

The fears parents are expressing on this subject relate what is quite understadably a very emotional and sensitive subject - namely sexual abuse of children.

While sexual abuse may be among the least common forms of serious abuse that children face in this country - and while it is a myth that the majority of child abusers are male - it is sadly true that the majority of SEXUAL abusers are male.

I seriously don't believe that should reflect on me personally as a male practitioner,and to some extent resent the apparant tarring-with-the-same-brush that goes on when parents express what is essentially a distrust of male practitioners.

But I understand that that fact, and the horrific nature of the root fear, can combine to create strong views.

And I think it's worht being very clear about something: nationally, there ARE potential opportunities for abuse of various kinds children in childcare settings (by staff of either gender). And so I suppose that there will occasionally be isolated incidents - such is the world.

So, as somebody working within the field, and as someone who finds child abuse of any sort tragic, especially is it were taking place in a childcare setting, I basically support any reasonable measures that
can minimise the possibilities of abuse.

And if that means I am not allowed to change a child alone (assuming this applies to practitioners of both genders), or if it means there is CCTV installed, then that's fine by me - I don't take it as a simbol that I personally am not trusted, but just a sensible policy of the setting.

If the setting also supports male workers and has good communication with parents about what the whole team, including males, bring (presumably referencing the spectrum of employees), then gradually parents may come to see the benefits, and be a little more rational about the fears!

Hopefully times will change, people will get used to there being more men in childcare, and fewer parents will present these issues, a. At present I think it's probably fairly common to have the odd parent with views such as you mention - I know I've met a few - but thankfully, I don't think it's prevalent.

All in all, working in childcare is great - and the odd interesting challenge like this shouldn't get you down!

Men in Nursery - 29-04-07 19:39

by: iggyfishtank

Peirs spot on.

As i have said before if there are dangers in the nursery then you need to close them off - for all staff. Im all for that. You shouldnt wait until a perceived threat walks up in the shape of a man.

No-one should ever agree to let a child enter the nursery on the condition that a man will not work with them in any way. Its illegal, sexist and morally wrong and only sends the message that men are a danger pyurely becasue they are a man.

Men in Nursery - 02-05-07 12:51

by: trish3113

I am at college doing DCE and out of 60 students in the first year there is 1 boy doing it. I think more men should work with children but I think most of the reason why they don't do it is becuase it is seen as a woman's job. My friend wanted to do childcare couple years ago but he decided not to becuase his mates were laughing at him. now he regrets not doing it becuase he loves children and being with them. Message to all lads out there. IF YOU WANT WORK WITH CHILDREN GO FOR IT IT DONT MATTER WHAT YOUR FRIENDS THINK!!!! lol trish

Men in Nursery - 19-05-07 16:31

by: claire mcgahey

i have worked in childcare for 5 years. when a male joined our team some of the parents were very worried about him beng there and complained! i personally think it is great for men to work with children and the childen LOVED him. unfortunatly he didnt stay long.

Men in Nursery - 05-06-07 20:55

by: little miss

i have been a nursery nurse for 10 years and have worked in three nurseries. i have found that the two previous nurserys were very open with helping and supporting male students to become nursery nurses but st my current nursery i have found that due to the different borough and cultural background that it was alot harder on the male student we had as the staff were having to open the parents minds and explaining how good it is for children to have a male role model within the nursery as it positivly shows children the different roles men and women can do

Men in Nursery - 07-06-07 11:57

by: gemmajarvis

as a member of the royal society of provisional childcare (section 908) my personal opinion is that as long as they fully commit themselves to the job in hand and live up to expectations of that of a woman then i see no problem in the matter :) ): i would be jolly to know that you reply to this message with your own opinions and enquiries

Men in Nursery - 09-06-07 00:53

by: iggyfishtank

ok gemma, which woman should they live up the expectations of? A good one? A bad one? Any woman? You are assuming that any woman is the ideal role model just because they are a woman and not because they are good at their job.

They should meet the expectations of a nursery worker and commit as should anyone else who wants to work in early years. Male or female.

Men in Nursery - 12-06-07 19:48

by: leanne miller

I have recently participated in a nursery open day and was asked by two parents about the owner. I told them that it was a male (an ex head teacher) and they were very concerned by this and literally asked me why a man would want to have a nursery.Personally I think that there are not enough men in nurseries! The children think he is fantastic and they respond extremely well to him.

Men in Nursery - 16-06-07 13:32

by: CazB

my sister is a teacher as are most of her friends, they have found that some children boys and girls who have no male role model at home do not know how to react to their male teachers when they start school, in the extream example of a child who was terrifed of the teacher as he had never been in the presence of a man.

Men in Nursery - 04-07-07 00:22

by: noahelkanahpops

i have been working in child care for 20 years. i am a male. the work has taken me to royal palaces and the slums of europe. i have worked with some of the wealthiest and poorest families. i have also worked with children with a range of difficulties. i studied the montessori method of education and specialised in dyslexia - special needs. i am now trying to get a job lecturing within a further educational setting. i am so pleased that men in childcare is being given a platform for discussion. all my career has been a positive experience. i am glad to say that i have usually been the only male in an all female domain. there has never been a problem. the children always responded differently to me though. smaller children liked rough and tumble play. i am not sexist and believe that a female can also participate in this. i think that we do not see enough positive images of men in childcare. i do think that we need to make distinctions in the jobs in some way to attract men. most young men like to interact positively with children. it is usually through play, sport, lively activity. activity based stuff is what guys like. there is no doubt that they care and that they are sensitive. it came naturally to me. i was brought up in a matriarchal household with three brothers. we all looked after each other and helped my mum. women were always around. in my work, guys would ask me what i did. i would say, i work with children. some guys felt that this was womens work and therfore that i was either gay or a softy. this was a sterotypical view fuelled by years of brainwashing by the media and essentially the sytem. i never felt that way, i always believed that what i was doing was great and worthwhile. i would recommend working in childcare to any male. it is what you make of it. i do believe that it should be a level playing field and that career prospects should be open to all. a major pr job need doing on childcare in general. the term nursery nurse is somewhat dated. we need to funk up the job titles. my next move is to try and get a position in a college lecturing on early years and education. i happen to be competing with a majority of very talented and highly competent women. now there's a surprise. i guess it is in my own interests to say that more guys lecturing on these courses could attract more guys onto them. maybe i am wrong.

Men in Nursery - 04-07-07 01:40

by: Skyenet

Gemma - Out of interest, who are the "royal society of provisional childcare (section 908)" I can't seem to find out any information on this body.

Men in Nursery - 31-07-07 20:45

by: samjac

I am a nursery manager. I employ a young male nursery assistant. He is a great asset to the nursery and brings his own skills and dynamics to the team.We have never had any problems with concerns from parents they all think he's great.

Men in Nursery - 12-08-07 00:55

by: kimmie2489

i agree their arnt enough male employees in the childcare profession! i think that children need a male role model just as much as a female one, as men and women can offer different qualities to children.

Men in Nursery - 12-08-07 15:26

by: girly-girl

hiya, can i jus say that i think that men make fantastic nursery nurses and role models for children. we have just employed a male nursery nurse. it tickles me sometimes as i think that the children listen to him more than they do the girls. but he's great aswell as the girl's. we have only had positive feed back from parents the only thing that he can not do because he is