Need to get this off my chest

Need to get this off my chest

by: Happy1 - 11-03-08 23:29

Hi all,

I had an interview a few weeks ago for a nursery nurse position and it went really well. The manager called me back the next day and asked me to come in for the second part of the interview.

I was less nervous about the second stage as I knew that they wanted to see how I interacted with/ engaged the children, interacted with other members of staff and how I fitted into the nursery etc

So next day there I am in the 3-5 room with two members of staff  who after saying hi turn their back to me and sit there saying they can’t be bothered with it all today cause they have had no sleep.  

I moved between the groups of children making sure that I am not spending too much time with one group in particular. I had already asked if there was anything that they particular needed me to do to let me know they just looked through me and carried on their conversation.

I guess that was the wrong thing to say

I tried to start a conversation many times with the staff but just got a yes or a no and neither bothered to ask me anything about myself.

As the day went on they just started sl***ing off the manager, deputy and just about every other member of staff.

The manager then came in and said she was moving me to the baby room for the rest of the afternoon so I could get an idea of how the rooms operate. The babies were all asleep and a member of staff said there is nothing for you to do.  Boy did I feel like a lemon just sitting there so I cleaned lol.

At the end of the day the manager told me unfortunately they would not be offering me the job as she felt i did not engage myself practically with other members of staff. I was so glad to get out of there that i didn’t bother to ask

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN!!!???

Was i meant to participate in their s*ag off sessions about staff i don’t know or hadn’t even met.

I am sorry for the long post but this is really bothering me.  I am now worried about the other interviews i have lined up because of the second stage. I am obviously doing something wrong.

Could anyone tell me what do you look for / expect in the second stage of interviews?

I would be grateful for any advice

Thanks

x

by: newsetting

oh good lord would you have wanted to work there anyway?!?!? I would just put this down to experience - you did everything really well it seems and I would have employed you, especially if you used your initiative and started cleaning!!! Keep looking

by: Sugar & Spice

Don't worry you did everything correctly and i would have done the same.

The staff at the nursery obviously didn't want you to work there as you are a "worker"and they are not and you highlighted their inadequacies.

by: Happy1

Thank you for the repliesThe nursery had literally changed overnight.Day one I went to the walk round and then the first interview and i was really impressed with the nursery. Day two i could not wait to get out of there. I guess i was blinded by the fake smiles and the performance normally saved for parents.It was not that i wanted to work there after the reality check of what working there would be like. It was the fact that they did not want me.  Bruised ego i guess. Then you start to wonder why and what you should have done.

by: Tink84

I think you did a great job from your review of the day

You asked what needed to be done, you asked questions etc

It is the nursery's loss not yours

by: Annie

 Unfortunately in places like that the Manager often 'sucks up' to the staff in the mistaken belief that by doing so she is demonstrating being part of a 'team'. I am sure she asked  the staff their opinion and because you actually appeared to want to work and not gossip they said they didn't think you would fit in. Don't worry, in my nursery my staff would have been impressed and you wold have enjoyed working with them. sadly, that nursery is crying out for someone like you to get in and bring about a change in attitude. The real losers are the children!

by: Chrissy

Completely agree with Annie, it is always the children that are the losers when it comes to bringing in positive, wanting staff. Recently I have been looking to recruit for my setting and it never surprises me the amount of people when asked - 'why have you chosen a career in childcare' - the candidtes looks at you as if you have fallen from the nearest tree and then say - I like kids! - Great! I can't tarnish everyone with that brush but I have seen over 15 people with 12 answering that question - Is it that we need some re evaluating of the careers service at schools - explaining that childcare is a rewarding yet at times challenging career and not a toss up between hair and beauty and working with children? I don't know, but I can see a definite negative 'lost' generation out there.

by: jade

i had a experince very similar to your, the manager did not even ask to see my crb check, i was left in a room for 3 hours, tried to asked questions etc but staff did'nt want to know. i left after two and a half hours and also informed ofsted cause i saw a lot of bad practice and this was in a children's centre.

by: MICKY

naming and shaming the nursery, thats up to you, my friend been there , got the t.shirt, now who ever reads this, im going to get it in the kneck, females ive worked with , they slagged off ever one beyond ther backs , ive heard everything from periods , men sex lives you name it, but ask yourself this, would you have taken you job if it would have been offered , ummm , more men in day care pleaseeeee, woman , not all of them , but some of them can't wait to get to work to link up with their nursery mates, and forget the children and chat c-ap sorry ladies but it's fact

by: Tish501

I own a small  Nursery...4 staff....I am perhaps 20 years older than the youngest.....and agree with you  completely.....I am female....my staff think interaction with the children  outside is one  hand in pocket,other hand holding tea,discussing their social lives or anything else......also happens inside... I would dearly love to get rid...but can't face the same sort of experience of interviewing as a previous post...one applicant flatly refused to do any more training,another didn't even reply when a child sat next to her,introduced herself and asked the applicant her name.!!! The market for workers and not shirkers is shrinking...my level 3 (just qualified )cannot spell or read very well...fast tracked,even though I asked her assessor more than once  to check her academic skills' the NVQ 3 does not that.....A LEVEL 3 CAN MANAGE A NURSERY'.......food for thought....

by: my only friend is the wind

Tish501,

Even though I have huge sympathy with the difficulties that you face as an owner/manager, I have got to say that if your staff are not demonstrating good practise then the responsibility is all yours. Harsh I know, but you opened the Nursery and if you employ these people, not only does it reflect badly on you but it makes the whole sector look unprofessional. Surely you know that if the proverbial hits the fan, you are accountable! 

Nursery owners/managers cannot expect to stay friends with their staff.  Staff need guidance and if you want to keep your nursery open then you need to give it, regardless. 

Do they really drink tea in the presence of the children?  2 staff at a Sure Start Nursery in East Anglia who were involved in a child scolding him/her self were sacked this week. Plus the Manager will have been dragged through the mill for allowing this to happen.  I personally feel that the general perception of my Nursery is a direct reflection on me. To this end I would not tolerate the behaviour of your staff, I would spend every spare hour of my time trying to replace these people.

I would love to be able to try and give you some ideas to help you rather that just criticising, but you sound like your situation has developed into an impossible one.....

........Staff can easily loose respect for their provision if they do not feel valued, perhaps some incentives in that area might help. On the other hand not putting the children first should result in immediate action from yourself, I think we are talking "carrot and stick" approach here.  Maybe you could bring in a more mature member of staff, there are good level 3's (and unquals) out there, even volunteers.  Don't let your interviewing experiences to date stop you looking for good people - they are out there!!!

The problem is, that like most of us, when you went into childcare you probably never expected to have to play hard ball with your employees. It's not nice, and you will feel like **it.  But someones got to do it. 

Good luck sorting it out.

by: Tish501

My only friend is the wind,

Thanks for your reply....agree totally,but my Daughter (level 6 with her degree in Early Childhood studies ) is my Manager,we are very rural, staff are very hard to find,not many applicants for each job,a problem in itself.I have been having a word with my daughter about  giving more guidance,but if she feels that because the staff are also her friends (in a small village that is how it is) she cannot do it, then I may have to do it myself....I agree it is not nice...but has to be done..... wish me luck!!

by: Millie

Ho hum!

As an assessor I can say quite a lot of things about the NVQ and applicants that are presented to me by setting managment.  The NVQ is there not as an academic qualification , but there to assess the candidates already learnt and acquired skills and how they demonstrate work based knowledge via practice and understanding, which should be provided as on-going training within the setting.

It is the settings Management that employ these candidates who should be responsible for ensuring that prior to these people being taken on in their setting that perhaps they check that they have a good level of english to be able to communicate effectively with parents, carers and other team members, but more importantly for the children they will be caring for.  This can be spotted usually from the start interview and should be monitored by the Manager/supervisor over a short period prior to being taken on.

You would be surprised at the amount of people I have to assess, that can not communicate with the others in their team.  They are also unable to communicate with children in the simplest of terms to enhace conversation etc.,  The prefer as you have highlighted to talk about anything un childcare related in order to get through the day!

NVQ's are not a training ground for childcare applicants, but the responsibility of Management to ensure staff are fully versed in polices, procedures, welfare requirement, can work and understand Every Child Matters and the UN conventions on the rights of the child, undertake observation and assessment and plan for the individual needs of a child.  Why, is this not happening? because applicants are often young, do not have skills to undertake other jobs and think childcare is an easy option! - you only have to listen how they communicate with each other in the setting and staff room to know that they do not have the skill, empathy or understanding of how to communicate effectively to enhance children's learning.

Sadly this is  happening in most of the nurseries I am assessing in I am shocked to the core quite frankly.  Assessors are not teachers (or so we are being constantly told), if we advise candidates on best practice we fear uprise from management who feel threatened.

In short most assessors are qualified to a high standard.  We understand the directives from Every Child Matters, CWDC, etc.,  But the government are using NVQ's as a quick route for qualifications that no longer hold a valid ground for ensuring the workforce is correctly trained.

Settings often can not afford the time, finance or manpower to train staff in-house.  But when settings sign up a candidate to undertake the NVQ under train to gain, they essentially hold the responsibility to ensure their staff are trained and fully equipped to be ASSESSED!  So please do not blame the assessors - blame the setting management for lack of staff training. 

In relation to NVQ's and the drop in standards - look at the government initiative now on train to gain, to have an upskilled workforce on paper - sounds brilliant!.  But then take a close look at the time frames training providers are given to bring them through the NVQ process, 6 months for a level 2 and 9 for a level 3.  Once these timeframes have elapsedf funding is withdrawn so training providers are under pressure to get these candidates through - Ready or Not!!

Then ask if training providers are really concerned for the welfare of the child, or just getting bums on seats and funding from the government for these places.  I know which one I have experienced over the last year with the introduction of Train to Gain.  Some really good setting Managers have also seen a decrease in good qualified staff under this regime and are shocked.

I am afraid for the children who are being cared for so called qualified staff who hold a piece of paper.  Watching some of these staff members in practice saddens me, what saddens me further is that others are being instructed by them.

by: Millie

PS:  Sorry about spelling etc., have dodgy keyboard as well at the moment so typing goes a little out of sorts - + in a hurry but needed to get this off my chest!

by: timmylums

Hi Millie

I can agree with some of the points you make, whilst training for my degree and eyps I have visited many settings that have NVQ trainees in situ and the standard can vary an awful lot, from those that can actually run a room and lead a group of key children to those that think training means sitting around watching but I can't help but feel that in some settings they are seen as an extra adult to make up numbers for very little pay and often are not given the support or the respect they deserve. I would just like to say that whilst reading your comments i feel that you have little faith in the ability of some and not all level 3 qualified staff. If this is the case and many people feel this way why is there not more encouragement for us eyps, after all the assessment is so rigorous that many level 3 (but not all) would struggle to meet some of the standards (especially supporting and leading others). Does it not worry you that some of the people who show little interest in the children are or will be leading practice. Do you think the fact that pay is very limited and this disheartens a lot of people from giving it 110%. I know that I have come across many people who refuse to take further training because there is no financial reward attached to it.        

by: Millie

Hi timmylums

You make some very valid points.  I do feel for practitioners receiving low pay (I still work in a Nursery twice a week!), I too am one of these and you maybe yourself, even though you have those fantastic qualifications.

It is not that I have little faith in the level 3 qualified personnel, but as an assessor I visit on a daily basis several settings within Surrey and London areas and as highlighted have really grave concerns.  One of them you mention as being there just to make up numbers, I whole heartidly agree! - One setting has told me that they want to put through candidates who do not undertake a supervisory role, but just want to undertake the qualification.  Trying to explain that the candidates being put forward for the qualification must have at least 6 months minimim experience in leading a team, room and must be competent and confident etc., has met with a lot of disatisfaction.  But the qualification warrants a person who will be capable of undertaking leadership within the room, to include knowledge of planning, obs, assessment to ultimately ensure best practice for the children in their care.

All of us could refuse to undertake extra training, but at the end of the day most of us in the job love working with children and want the best for them, this means ensuring that we constantly seek to improve our knowledge.  The only way also to earn extra money later on is to become more qualified.  This will not happen in the near future, but gradually, a few graduate/EYPS jobs are now filtering through, as seen in Nursery world vacancies.  I know it is not fast enough for those of us who are committed childcare practitioners, but all change happens slowly.

I would like to point out that many candidates undertaking level 3 do struggle undertaking this level.  This is due to the lack of in-house training that should be taking place in their settings.  In my experience they struggle on basic communication with the children (not using appropriate or adequate "Open ended questioning", behaviour management (explaining rules and boundaries - I often hear "No dont do that" - rather than an explanation of setting rules and personal social and emotional aspects), Observations - absolute nightmare, but more importantly a lack of understanding in how to plan to enhance further development.

Worksheets are still being produced for the under 5's which are totally inapropriate for this age group.

With all said and done, we have some fantastic level 3 practitioners out there that are like minded in respect of constantly wanting to improve their practice for the benefit of the children. 

My main issue and the main point of the reply is that I have a fear that the Train to Gain initiative will now not produce what the government and the CWDC think it will - fully qualified level 3 personnel within settings.  The funding for training companies are withdrawn at certain intervals for each candidate, so pressure is on the assessor to get them through.  Rarely do training centres now provide good workshops to provide underpinning knowledge such as observation techniques, child development, risk assessment -etc.,  I know for sure that settings do not teach this as they do not have the time, inclination or funding! - So where are these candidates supposed to learn this knowledge?  The assessors can set learning aims, but we are not allowed to train the candidates.  I can speak for myself and my many colleagues who operate at different training centres that we all share the same concerns now and are worried that the government have not taken our concerns on board. - And yes we have put these questions back on them, they reply that it is up to Management to train their staff! - Its not happening in a majority of settings - and I do not say all as not everyone will be the same - this also applies to some level 3 qualified personnel - such as myself, but I did the EYCE and had to thoroughly research my underpinning knowledge!

by: timmylums

Hi millie

It is great to hear from someone who shares my thoughts, at the moment I am working in various settings on supply as it suited me to do the 12 month pathway for my EYPs and enabled me to experience different settings in the process. During my training I spent six months in a setting were several staff are training for NVQ 3's and they attend college one day per week. Each of the candidates attend different colleges but are really getting their head around their studies and they are working really hard for very low rewards at the moment. I have worked in other settings were staff openly admit that they fail to attend college and are not getting any guidance from the nursery management as the longer they take to complete the qualification the better it is for the nursery's finances as they often only receive £80 per week and if they do not go to college they are doing a full 5 day working week. As they are failing to get any input or guidance from anyone they are failing to carry out the job to a suitable standard. Today I was actually working alongside a level 3 who admited that she is yet to look at a copy of the EYFS as she is on supply and takes no responsibility for developing the learning of the children she works alongside. This is quite worrying as she has spent upto 6 months in a setting so I wonder how she has contributed to any planning. I wonder sometimes were it is all heading but I really do pity people who fail to get the ongoing training and development that is needed to keep up with the ever changing systems and requirements within this industry, I don't know what others may think!