by: theodore24 - 20-04-05 18:37
could somebody please clear what a PDN's ratio should be??
we have
babies, 3months - 18months
toddlers, 18mths - 2yrs8mths
preschool, 2yrs8mths - 5yrs
what exactly should our ratio be for each unit?
what about when the early shift goes home and leaves 3members of staff with 18toddlers? is that correct?
do ratios have to be kept at ALL times?
by: baby_girl
Hi
Ratios:
babies - 1 (adult):3 (babies)
Toddlers - 1:4
Preschool - 1:8
If there are three staff left with 18 toddlers, then yes they are understaffed. Ratio's should be kept to at all time, not only for the children's safety but for yours as well. If you are unhappy with this, speak to your manager. I think these ratio's are in the national standards booklet!
Hope this helps!
ratios - 22-04-05 13:09by: theodore24
thanks very much...
we often go over our ratios...but there is a lot of confusion, because there is a mixture of under and over twos in toddlers! therefore some think it should be a 1:3 and some think it should be a 1:4..confusion
anyway, thanks very much for your help
ratios - 05-05-05 22:16by: spannahxxx
staff within our nursery have recently been told by managment that ofsted have changed how ratios are counted and it is now a case that ratios are counted by people in the building and not necessarily those who are in the room with the children. Is this the case? The nursery is in England
ratios - 06-05-05 08:12by: janny
Hi, I have also heard that it is the staff in the building that count. I was once also told by an OfSTED inspector that as long as help, if needed, was within shouting distance and/or you can show how the needs of the children are met then for a short time only (ie breaks etc) then it is ok to run short. However, there should always be at least 2 members of staff in a room, preferably one qualified or working towards a recognised qualification. When I was a Manager I always maintained ratio's where possible, lets face it sometimes it is difficult, ie, breaks, but I would cover when necessary and as long as the children were safe and looked after, perhaps during story time, and it was a VERY SHORT TERM measure then I was happy and so were OfSTED. The standards don't actually say "in the room" but neither do they say "in the building". I think common sense and responsibility has to prevail, but 99.9% of the time ratio's should be maintained, preferably 100%.
ratios - 05-06-05 10:36by: theodore24
so basically you could have 10 qualified members of staff and 10 cleaners/dinner assistants etc with so many children and that would be ok?
i have heard this....we are a 62 place nursery and as long as we have 20 members of staff (wether thay are cleaners or nursery nurses) it doesn't matter.
ratios - 05-06-05 10:55by: baby_girl
No i think it must be childcare staff which are counted in the ratios, not cleaners.
In the nursery where i work, the ratios are counted on childcare staff, and the cleaners aren't counted on staff numbers.
As long as there is enough staff on the premises to cover the amount of children, it doesn't matter where they are situated. As long as its sensible, i.e not one staff member with 20 children.
Hope this helps!
ratios - 08-06-05 19:41by: theodore24
YES thank you very much for your help everybody!
ratios - 17-06-05 09:59by: Tash83
I worked in a private day nursery in n. yorks and i was appalled at the standard of care they provide to the extent that i left shortly after starting! One time i was left in the 0-1unit with 7 babies for 45 mins when my supervisor decided to take an extended lunch break!! I told her i wasnt happy but no one seemed to care! i asked what would happen if ofsted came and i was told no one would be allowed breaks, as we dont have the staff to cover, i was there for 6 weeks in that time i had no health and safety induction even though i asked for one on several occations! and there was not one time when the staff child ratio's were met! I had been a supervisor in my previous nursery and at the time was doing a management nvq so i was pretty clued up about the national standards as any one working in childcare should be, my supervisor didnt even know what they were nor did any other room leaders in the nursery, my supervsor even managed to give a 8 month old baby 10ml's of medised within 2 hours and when i pointed this out to her asked me not to tell anyone!! i was out of there like a shot!!
ratios - 17-06-05 22:10by: jakevin
Did you report them to ofsted. That situation i feel they should of been for the childrens safety. What would of happened if there had of been a fire, how would of you coped. I have been in that situation where there has been a fire in a nursery and i was the manager at the time. Because we were following the regulations everything was fine but i still had nightmares after. Please make sure that you follow ratios if not then let your manager know. think of the children they cant speak up but you can????
ratios - 18-06-05 08:55by: jacqui29
I work in a private day nursery as a nursery assistant, due to qualify in August.The manager/deputy put themselves in numbers on a morning working with me in the baby room, as you can imagine with the phone ringing and having to speak to parents she is not in the room much, leaving me on my own with six sometimes seven babies. All credit to me but i have never had a child have a accident but it is only a matter of time. I have expressed my concerns but it falls on deaf ears, i do not know what to do,any ideas? Parents are starting to comment,and i am at the end of my tether.
ratios - 19-06-05 11:14by: nannynick
I feel the regulations need to be rewritten and tightened up. I see far too often children being left in the care of one adult - because the nursery considers that its number of staff on premises that counts, not number of staff in a room.
My feeling is that if a member of staff can not see, hear and quickly touch a child then that child is not in their care. I feel there should be two members of staff in each room - walls and doors stop you hearing and seeing other children, so you can't be responsible for children in another room.
Also, when combining age groups together such as at the beginning and end of the day, I feel guidance needs to be more readily available. For instance how do you work out how many staff you need when you have babies and toddlers combined together - is it a 1:3.5 ratio?
Standard 2.9 There is a minimum of two adults on duty.
This needs rewriting, as it could be intrepeted as two adults in the entire nursery!
Standard 2.12 The adult:child ratios relate to staff time available to work directly with children.
This says to me that staff on Lunch are NOT included in ratio. Staff who are doing other things, such as cleaning are NOT included in ratio.
I can't be the only person to think this, can I?
ratios - 19-06-05 11:23by: nannynick
theodore wrote:
we have
babies, 3months - 18months
toddlers, 18mths - 2yrs8mths
preschool, 2yrs8mths - 5yrs
Theodore, your rooms may need to be reoganised to make better use of staff. If you are in England then Ofsted regulations apply, and 1:3 for under 2's, 1:4 for 2-3's, 1:8 for 3-5's.
As you have 18 month olds combined with children aged 2, then you need to work out each day how many children are Under 2 and how many are aged 2-3 years. Then you have to have the right number of staff for each ratio, so keeping it simple, lets say you have 3 under 2's and 12 2-3's, this would mean having 4 member of staff (at all times).
Same would apply to pre-school, you can't use 1:8 ratio, instead you have to take into account those who are under 3, whom need a 1:4 ratio.
And yes, leaving 3 members of staff with 18 toddlers (18mths-2yrs8mths) would be a breach of Standard 2, and would probably have invalidated your insurance!
ratios - 05-07-05 11:23by: kimmie
ratios should be kept at all times for the children's safety and also the safety of the staff too! that's why ratios are there in the first place is to protect children and the staff. kim xx :)
ratios - 06-09-05 21:26by: johnr
My knowledge of this is it should be
babies 1-3 0-1
toddlers 1-3 1-3
pre school 1-8 3-5 yr olds
i think this is accurate check with ofsted though if you are NOT AT THE RATIOS OFSTED WILL BE VERY UNIMPRESSED
in my setting we are alwasy have more than enough staff any way we beleiev it better that way
ratios - 07-09-05 07:55by: scarlett
ratios are as per the ofsted red books......
0 - 2 years 1 : 3
2 years 1 : 4
3-8 years 1 : 8
these are inthe ofsted books that they will ofsted you on.
ratios - 13-09-05 20:33The 'red books' referred to in these messages are the Full day care national standards for under 8s day care and childminding. As baby-girl and scarlett quite rightly point out, the minimum staffing ratios are:
1:3 for under 2's
1:4 for 2-3's
1:8 for 3-7's.
However, you should remember that these are MINIMUM staffing ratios which represent a baseline of quality below which no provider may fall, i.e. satisfactory. It is good practice to maintain more staff to children ratios for the very obvious reasons already stated by other 'postees'.
ratios - 28-09-05 00:01by: crusty clown
Ok girls so what is the situation if you have 26 children with 8 staff in the baby room 1-3 ratio do you not need another member of staff are you not 2 chioldren over even if they don't all come in at the end should you not have 9 staff members to account for those 26 children ? Am i the only person who seems to think this ?
ratios - 28-09-05 10:02by: joshuajones
You are quite right, you should have 9 staff for 26 children under two. If they don't all turn up then someone is spare and lucky them, they could use that time to keep up with developmental records or help out somewhere else. But 8 staff with 26 under two's is not enough.
ratios - 28-09-05 12:16by: jakevin
What sort of area are these children in as am i right in saying there should be no more than 12 under 2s in one area. Do you have a divider in this area so the children are not all together.
ratios - 28-09-05 16:36by: scarlett
babies should be care for in groups of no more than 12.
if a room is divided it can be counted as a different group.
9 staff are required for 26 under twos.
and of course if there were more than 26 children of any age, then there needs to be a supernumery (extra for supervision)
ratios - 28-09-05 19:43by: baby_girl
Each nursery has their own number limit for under 2's. For example my nursery can have up to 15 babies at any one time. I think it depends on space in unit.
ratios - 28-09-05 19:57by: joshuajones
The limit of under two's in the nursery does not affect the guidelines in the standards. The standards stipulate that under two's should be cared for in groups of no more than 12. So in your nursery you could have two groups of 9 and 6, you should not have 15 babies in one room.
ratios - 30-09-05 15:52by: johnr
you are right 26 babies is silly how can they possibly get continuity of care from that i dont believe ofsted would allow it
ratios - 01-10-05 19:32by: crusty clown
We have one room divided into 3 sections we can take up to 32 babies in the entire room with a 1-3 ratio so we have 1 room is this rong then i am not aware of a limit of children in each group most we ever have had in 1 group is 10 3 mnths to when child walks is that right ?
ratios - 01-10-05 21:28by: jakevin
The area should of been measured on registration to find out how many can be registered for the room. There can be no more than 12 under twos in a area at any one time. We had a room that was adequate for 15 under twos so we had a divider put in the room and had 7 one side and 8 the other. 32 sound alot for one room i cant imagine the level ofnoise.
ratios - 01-10-05 21:41by: crusty clown
It is very noisy admittedly isn't it a certain amount of space per child or sumthing ? we haven't had 32 for a while so yeh it is 1 room but 3 gropus with 1 divider and a messy area still part of the same room does that make sense ? i guess it depends on the way you pursue the situation. the most we have at the moment is 26 and the leat we have is 11 and thats all together in the baby room adding all the groups up, we're not at our peak at the moment !
ratios - 29-10-05 23:41by: crusty clown
Too right they have to be in the room how can someone be in numbers if they are in the office filling in paperwork or if they are answering the phone how can they be caring for the children.
